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  • #7179
    AvatarDr.Faustus
    Participant

    Hi everyone, after about a year of absence due to baby I can again dedicate myself, even if not with the constancy I hoped for, to my plans. specifically I would like to make a station with theremino geiger adapter–>theremino master—> raspberry pi. all this would then serve to connect multiple sensors and send data online. I had chosen the raspberry because it seemed to me to be an economic solution ( I paid the model in question for € 23) to manage even complex data transmission, possibly also be able to run small programs to manage this data. However, I tried to follow the instructions on the site by installing the image provided, but that doesn't seem compatible with the version of raspberry I have ( v3 A +).. if the date is the one shown in the file it seems rather old. does anyone experience anything like this? it is possible to run HAL and the various modules differently, what do I know for example with wine?
    Thanks a lot as always for your help and Happy Holidays

    #7185
    Avatartheremino
    Keymaster

    Ciao,
    all the applications of our system work only with Windows so maybe you could use Wine.
    But I write “perhaps” because Wine has many flaws and does not run all the programs, maybe it opens them well but then they don't communicate with the USB or with the drivers (for example WebCams or other devices). So you could try but, if it also worked, everything would be terribly slow and with the CPU always on the ball, therefore practically unusable.

    Furthermore, making the right comparisons, the price of the Raspberry is not as low as it seems. First of all, in that price the box is not included, neither the power supply nor the sound card. And if you buy these things separately you easily reach a total of 60 O 70 Euro.

    You could instead take a Z83, with Windows 10 included. in price and performance infinitely superior to the Raspberry, It costs approx 100 Euro, but you can also find it in 90 Euro, shipping included

    The Z83 has the container, the power supply, a QuadCore CPU flanked by 2 MB of cache, with base operating frequency is of 1.44 GHz and capable of reaching up to 1.92 GHz on one of the four cores. The integrated GPU is Intel HD Graphics 400 eighth generation it can count on 12 calculation unit, operating at a frequency between 200 ed i 500 MHz. The installed memory is eMMC type and has a capacity of 32 GB, RAM is of 2 GB. It also has Dual Band Wi-Fi b / g / n and ac, a Gigabit Ethernet port, two USB ports 2.0 and one 3.0 full-size, an Audio mini-jack socket from 3.5 millimeters, which also supports microphone input, it bluetooth 4.0 and the ability to connect two monitors.

    On this page you can see the images and the completeness of accessories and connectors that the Z83 has.
    https://www.ebay.it/itm/Z83II-Mini-PC-Intel-Atom-x5-Z8350-Quad-Core-Windows10-64bit-WiFi-TV-Box-5G-WiFi/232857184198?hash=item36375ea7c6:g:58IAAOSw6-Nb0pBx

    #7187
    AvatarDr.Faustus
    Participant

    OK thanks, I will evaluate the purchase of a Z83. In the meantime I will also try some attempts with wine

    #7210
    AvatarLeo
    Participant

    Ciao,
    I allow myself to add some other suggestions to have an excellent functioning of the system Theremino.
    Not everyone knows that if you buy a tablet smaller than 10 inch, the Windows license 10 It's free.
    A tablet from 8 O 9 inches costs less than 90 Euro and has everything it can’ to serve, not least the touch display.
    Furthermore, on the threshold of 80 Euro there are TV BOXes with Windows 10 which are Intel quad cores with 64 Giga of SSD e 4 Giga in RAM. USB 2 e USB3, Uscita 4K HDMI, VGA, presa Ethernet, Wi-Fi, BlueTooth, infrared remote control and power supply!
    And don't think it's unreliable. I have been using them in the company for months now and I have two at home connected to 4K TVs and they work P E R F E T T A M E N T E !!!
    Also in the threshold of 70 Euro find TV STICK.
    Goggla looking for a mix of these words: TV Stick Intel Z8350 BT 4.2 HDMI 4K Windows 10 Mini PC
    These devices, having Windows 10 native, they go very well with the Theremino system and there is no comparison with a Raspberry for the same configuration, cost, ferformances, reliability and last but not least, aesthetic aspect..
    Leo

    • This reply was modified right now by AvatarLeo.
    • This reply was modified right now by AvatarLeo.
    #7218
    AvatarDr.Faustus
    Participant

    We actually study the problem a little deeper I understand that, even if possible IN THEORY, in practice the matter is practically impossible. To run the windows application, you must first install it on the raspberry ( which has ARM architecture) Qemu or similar to simulate the X86 architecture, then wine with various dependencies to emulate windows, obtaining, su un rapsberry 4 similar performance, they say, to a Pentium 386. The game is completely impossible with a raspberry 3 A + that I have. Let's say the price had enticed me and I naively “threw your heart over the obstacle” without documenting too much, but the truth is that I wanted to experience the platform so that's okay.

    The point is that I was hoping to implement a very very cheap hardware system for the station, and as an employee, in the sense that the entire acquisition system would be positioned in an enclosure exposed to the elements and therefore liable to premature wear due to high humidity temperatures etc.. a system with an economic card could be worth the candle, but systems like mini computers from 70 or more euros are starting to become expensive. the probably most convenient solution is to put the sensor part (master e adapter) outdoors, connected with an amplified USB cable to a PC inside the house.

    Otherwise another solution, but that is a little out of this section, is to use another acquisition system, like him “adapter” compatible with arduino. At that point a world of possibilities would open up because I could connect it to both the raspberry A +, that, as I have already experimented with other sensors, to a NodeMCU which is a microcontroller / wifi card programmable with very small arduino code, the inexpensive, and which absorbs very little.

    #7220
    Avatartheremino
    Keymaster

    Arduino adapters may be fine, but I don't know them and I can't give you useful advice.
    As for the Geiger Adapter, I would like to point out that the cable going to the Master can be very long, certainly much longer than USB cables even if amplified.
    So you could just keep the geiger tube outdoors with GeigerAdapter and then, with a comfortable shielded cable with two internal poles (signal and power supply), go up to the Master and the PC.

    #7226
    AvatarDr.Faustus
    Participant

    Thank you! this is certainly important information… but sorry, both the supply voltage and the signal are not determined by the length of the master-adapter cable? I thought this effect could be better managed on the master-pc usb digital signal..

    #7238
    Avatartheremino
    Keymaster

    Let's divide the problem in two

    SUPPLY
    In USB cables the -5 volt of power goes through a very small thread and also the GND return of the power goes through another equally small thread.
    If you cut a USB cable you will see that it is the red and black wires, and on rectangular USB connectors, are the two side contacts (first and fourth).
    So with long USB cables (amplified or not) the 5 was cade a 4.5 or even 4 volt, and if you go down again, the Geiger Adapter may no longer work.

    If instead you use a shielded cable you can find those “microphone”, which have the tear-proof hemp cord and the two white and red internal cables.
    These cables have the section of the wires much larger than that of the USB cables and also the return of the power supply (GND) would pass over the shielding sock, which has a very low resistance.
    Therefore, for the same length, the shielded cable produces a lower voltage drop (circa 5 times less or less with thick cables).

    SIGNAL
    The output signal from the Geiger Adapter are simple on / off pulses. Their frequency is much lower than USB signals and they are not digital signals to be decoded with serial protocol, but simple impulses that are counted one by one by the Master.
    And since the impulses are counted, the attenuation produced by a long cable does not change the number of counts.
    Naturally, beyond a certain cable length, the attenuation would become so high that the Master would no longer count, but it is certainly longer than USB cables

    With a normal shielded cable with two internal wires you can reach ten meters and beyond, but with a small modification (two resistors in all) cables could also be used from 100 meters and beyond.

    Here is an image that explains the change (right image)
    https://www.theremino.com/technical/connection-cables#long

    And here is a page that explains it in detail.
    https://www.theremino.com/hardware/inputs/radioactivity-sensors#connections

    Using (as indicated) a 1k resistor on the GeigerAdapter, and a 100k resistor near the Master, you can extend the shielded cable at will.
    The calculations say that as far as the signal is concerned you could go to 500 meters and beyond, but we indicated 30 meters because you must also bring the power.
    To overcome the 30 meters you should therefore use shielded cable with internal wires of greater cross section or a multi-wire cable and use many wires in parallel for the positive.

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